The "When the fastest qualifier is not on Pole" 2021 British GP

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Re: The "When the fastest qualifier is not on Pole" 2021 British GP

Post by erwin greven » 1 month ago

Latest post of the previous page:

Dale Earnhardt junior, retired because of the results of several concussions.
Brian Redman: "Mr. Fangio, how do you come so fast?" "More throttle, less brakes...."

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Post by White six » 1 month ago

Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
John wrote:
1 month ago
Most likely, yes. You can get a concussion from a lot of things, including light whiplash. I would be very surprised if Max wasn't concussed in that incident even though the tyre barriers absorbed some of the impact. See Felix Rosenqvists impact at Detroit a few weeks back.
Makes me wonder if he should sit out the next race, especially with the three week break coming up. I am sure he won't, as I can't recall an F1 driver ever sitting out a race for concussion, but the protocols have gotten pretty strict for some sports (like hockey).

FYI Fernando Alonso did not take part in the opening race of the 2015 season in Adelaide after a concussion testing pre-season. KMag took his place.

Interesting article about that episode... (Fernando suffered 'retrograde amnesia', and went back to thinking he was 13 years old!)
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/fern ... ash-2015-3

Not F1 but Will Power also missed an Indycar race with concussion
Another interesting article: https://www.si.com/racing/2016/03/18/in ... policy-cte
He still thinks he's about 23 and refuses to retire

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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

John wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
John wrote:
1 month ago
Most likely, yes. You can get a concussion from a lot of things, including light whiplash. I would be very surprised if Max wasn't concussed in that incident even though the tyre barriers absorbed some of the impact. See Felix Rosenqvists impact at Detroit a few weeks back.
Makes me wonder if he should sit out the next race, especially with the three week break coming up. I am sure he won't, as I can't recall an F1 driver ever sitting out a race for concussion, but the protocols have gotten pretty strict for some sports (like hockey).
Yes, I work within the ice hockey world myself and if Max was a hockey player right now he would be on a concussion recovery programme for the next two weeks. That said I've no clue if Max actually has a concussion, as likely as it may be, or if he has concussion like symptoms. But I would hope that F1 has a medical protocol for these events.
My son is a hockey player, which is why I am aware of this. I am not sure F1 has a medical protocol for this. The protocols for hockey in the United States are pretty strict.

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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
DoubleFart wrote:
2 months ago
Ruslan wrote:
2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote:
2 months ago
Other than that I don't see what Verstappen could have done to avoid it other that drive off the track on purpose at 300kmph.
You don't think he could have taken the corner a foot or two further to the left or braked earlier when he saw that Lewis was almost beside him?
Why should he?
Because there was a car in that space.

I mean the not very precise rules of "right of way" in racing don't outweigh the laws of physics. In the end, I suspect Verstappen had to surrender that corner, which as we all know, he did not do.
no you're right but the problem is that it's not so easy to judge where the car chasing you is and especially to judge where it's going to be when you start to turn in. IMHO Max couldn't have known that Hamilton was going to miss the apex, that's the real problem. IMHO the accident became unavoidable when Hamilton failed to back off as soon as he realised that he wasn't going to make it.
My suspicion is that it was too late for Hamilton back off when he realized that he wasn't going to make it. That the car was understeering indicates that he was probably close to the limits anyway.

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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

White six wrote:
1 month ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
John wrote:
1 month ago
Most likely, yes. You can get a concussion from a lot of things, including light whiplash. I would be very surprised if Max wasn't concussed in that incident even though the tyre barriers absorbed some of the impact. See Felix Rosenqvists impact at Detroit a few weeks back.
Makes me wonder if he should sit out the next race, especially with the three week break coming up. I am sure he won't, as I can't recall an F1 driver ever sitting out a race for concussion, but the protocols have gotten pretty strict for some sports (like hockey).

FYI Fernando Alonso did not take part in the opening race of the 2015 season in Adelaide after a concussion testing pre-season. KMag took his place.

Interesting article about that episode... (Fernando suffered 'retrograde amnesia', and went back to thinking he was 13 years old!)
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/fern ... ash-2015-3

Not F1 but Will Power also missed an Indycar race with concussion
Another interesting article: https://www.si.com/racing/2016/03/18/in ... policy-cte
He still thinks he's about 23 and refuses to retire
Actually, I think that is great.

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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

White six wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
John wrote:
1 month ago
Most likely, yes. You can get a concussion from a lot of things, including light whiplash. I would be very surprised if Max wasn't concussed in that incident even though the tyre barriers absorbed some of the impact. See Felix Rosenqvists impact at Detroit a few weeks back.
Makes me wonder if he should sit out the next race, especially with the three week break coming up. I am sure he won't, as I can't recall an F1 driver ever sitting out a race for concussion, but the protocols have gotten pretty strict for some sports (like hockey).
Piquet imola 87. Now that was brutal



Wow, he was so lucky there.
The Piquet incident really comes to mind. I gather he was still feeling the effects of the concussion over a year later. It was a different era, so it was kind of ignored; but I suspect that is part of the reason why Piquet suddenly no longer looked as great as he did before.

I friend of mine a couple of days ago mentioned Ralf Schumacher's accident at 74G at Indy. He claims he was never the same driver after that.

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Post by White six » 1 month ago

Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
White six wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
John wrote:
1 month ago
Most likely, yes. You can get a concussion from a lot of things, including light whiplash. I would be very surprised if Max wasn't concussed in that incident even though the tyre barriers absorbed some of the impact. See Felix Rosenqvists impact at Detroit a few weeks back.
Makes me wonder if he should sit out the next race, especially with the three week break coming up. I am sure he won't, as I can't recall an F1 driver ever sitting out a race for concussion, but the protocols have gotten pretty strict for some sports (like hockey).
Piquet imola 87. Now that was brutal



Wow, he was so lucky there.
The Piquet incident really comes to mind. I gather he was still feeling the effects of the concussion over a year later. It was a different era, so it was kind of ignored; but I suspect that is part of the reason why Piquet suddenly no longer looked as great as he did before.

I friend of mine a couple of days ago mentioned Ralf Schumacher's accident at 74G at Indy. He claims he was never the same driver after that.
Shame we didn't see him in full flow after that. He was getting to grips with Mansell by then and had his team within a team with Frank Dernie.

But then did it actually win him the title? He couldn't hammer the car as hard as Nige, who continued to have bits fall off and crash occasionally

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Post by White six » 1 month ago

Red bull continuing to pile the guilt on Merc. Hospital visit, now the cost of repairs

It's understandable, but that type of incident happens plenty times to many different drivers and the consequences are usually far less

Jury is out on whether F1 is the sort of sport where anger can be turned into good performance

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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 month ago

White six wrote:
1 month ago
Red bull continuing to pile the guilt on Merc. Hospital visit, now the cost of repairs
Yeah his latest rant is about money.....

The damage incurred to Max Verstappen’s Red Bull in his first-lap crash after tangling with Lewis Hamilton last weekend cost £1.3 million (US$1.8m), the team has revealed.

Team principal Christian Horner continued his criticism of Hamilton and Mercedes in a column published on the team’s website on Friday.
“That crash has cost us approximately US $1.8 million and an accident like that has massive ramifications in a budget cap era.”

He continues to blame Hamilton entirely for the crash. He also explained his emotional outburst at the time.
“At the point in time when you have a driver in hospital and the extent of any injuries have not yet been made clear, your car has been written off and the stewards have penalised the driver seen to be responsible, it is natural that emotion comes into play, for all involved, whether you feel wronged or victorious,” said Horner.

The steward ruled Hamilton was “predominantly” to blame for the collision. Horner continues to hold him entirely responsible. He insisted that at the point of contact between the pair, Hamilton’s car was on a trajectory which would not have taken him around the corner had he not hit his championship rival.

“When you look at the incident closely, Max took a wider line into Copse compared to Leclerc when Hamilton overtook him in the race,” said Horner. “Hamilton braked late and overshot the corner.

“He was travelling at such a speed that he was never going to make the apex of the corner and his trajectory through Copse meant he was never going to miss Max, even with braking he ran very wide after the accident.”
He reckons they are still looking at getting the Stewards to review the incident further.
Time to move on I think. Both sides have clearly got their feelings at polar extremes of the scale when it is more a 60-40 % type of incident.and continuing to bleat is not going to make good what happened in any way. All that continuing the ranting is going to do is make some sort of revenge incident almost inevitable rather than just saying "Shit happens, lets all learn from it".

I have highlghted in bold the areas that Horner says that I agree with. Bottom line is though that both drivers could have made the consequences less likely.

*Sebastian, Lance is faster than you... do you understand?*


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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Red Bull complaining about money. I mean, they already bought their four championships.

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Post by P. Cornelius Scipio » 1 month ago

Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
DoubleFart wrote:
2 months ago
Ruslan wrote:
2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote:
2 months ago
Other than that I don't see what Verstappen could have done to avoid it other that drive off the track on purpose at 300kmph.
You don't think he could have taken the corner a foot or two further to the left or braked earlier when he saw that Lewis was almost beside him?
Why should he?
Because there was a car in that space.

I mean the not very precise rules of "right of way" in racing don't outweigh the laws of physics. In the end, I suspect Verstappen had to surrender that corner, which as we all know, he did not do.
no you're right but the problem is that it's not so easy to judge where the car chasing you is and especially to judge where it's going to be when you start to turn in. IMHO Max couldn't have known that Hamilton was going to miss the apex, that's the real problem. IMHO the accident became unavoidable when Hamilton failed to back off as soon as he realised that he wasn't going to make it.
My suspicion is that it was too late for Hamilton back off when he realized that he wasn't going to make it. That the car was understeering indicates that he was probably close to the limits anyway.
agreed. Having said that Hamilton should have known that he wasn't going to make it, that he didn't have enough speed nor enough road to brake in order to take that turn, he's a 7 times WDC, he's been raised racing at Silverstone, there is no way that he could claim that he didn't know what was going to happen. But we all make mistakes, it happens. As I said I'm not particularly bothered by Hamilton's mistake, what bothers me is what he said afterwards.

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Post by erwin greven » 1 month ago

Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
I don't have a lot of sympathy for Red Bull complaining about money. I mean, they already bought their four championships.
And how much money did they pay for each one?
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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

erwin greven wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
I don't have a lot of sympathy for Red Bull complaining about money. I mean, they already bought their four championships.
And how much money did they pay for each one?
A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.

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Post by Ruslan » 1 month ago

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote:
1 month ago
As I said I'm not particularly bothered by Hamilton's mistake, what bothers me is what he said afterwards.
I was not too impressed with that either, but it seems kind of standard now in athletics to claim in any violation or penalty situation that you are not at fault.

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Post by erwin greven » 1 month ago

Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.
And how many are bought then by Mercedes? Or Ferrari?
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Post by Everso Biggyballies » 1 month ago

erwin greven wrote:
1 month ago
Ruslan wrote:
1 month ago
A whole lot more than $1.8 million. The history of Formula for the last 11 years could be simply written as the best funded team and driver won the world championship. This appears to be one thread in common: outweighing who the drivers were, who the engineers were, and who the team managers were.
And how many are bought then by Mercedes? Or Ferrari?
I think that is the point..... What @Ruslan has identified is not only did Red Bull in essence buy their titles, any other top team has done so this millennium. Yes even Brawn. .... Brawn knew that the hundreds of millions invested by Honda was at the point of fruition. They had in that process come up with the must have double diffuser first. Brawn himself spent none of his own money coming up with that but reaped the reward of the hundreds of millions Honda had, to come up with the Eureka moment.The reality it is not necessarily the team that sends the most that comes up with the goods....proof of that is the limited success of Ferrari in recent times. Their last success in the early noughties was down to one of their main sponsors being Bridgestone and the prefrential treatment that went with it.They have probably thrown as much money as anyone at their cars, but lacked finding that Eureka moment beyond a few years with a tyre advantage.

Or Lotus in developing Ground Effect to F1 terms. Eureka moment that all others had to spend big to follow

All of the main teams have thrown money by the bucketload at all aspects of the cars be it engine, aero, or chassis. Red Bull spent more on aero in their title years. Newey found secrets that others didnt. Mercedes did similar with their engine development..... what that sending had done, long before the hybrid engines were a reality, was built u a mass of knowledge which they used to push regulations to suit be agreed. Others were agreeing to potential rules they knew less about that Mercedes.

They have all sent the hundreds of millions. But the clever ones have recognised a tiny aspect within their develoment. It works against as well.... in their bulk sending it seems like Merc when down the wrong path investing in their low rake ideals.... Red Bull have now seemingly roved that high rake was the way to go.

Of course it in terms of the current cars, comes to an end this year with the new regs for 2022. What we dont know is of all the literally billions spent by all, developing next years cars, is who has within that send, identified the one item that becomes the next eureka moment. Who will have the big advantage of being first kid on the block with the new tech.

The only way in I can think of to illuminate the theory in relation to real life that fits in goes back for me several decades to when video recorders first came along. Beta or VHS. I bought Beta for whatever reason. Sony invested humungous money developing, Beta, but VHS became the one to have. For that era anyway. Beta became an expensive fail that almost took Sony with it.


Getting back to F1 I guess I am saying that of all the billions jointly invested in development it comes down to the smaller aspect where you refine that focus on that matters. And that focus point changes every few years to something totally new. And it seems blanket sending is how that relatively inexpensive sub sector gets identified.

*Sebastian, Lance is faster than you... do you understand?*


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