Who is the greatest American driver?

Racing events, drivers, cars or anything else from the past.
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#16

Post by Ruslan »

Bottom post of the previous page:

EB wrote: 3 years ago I think Bill Vukovich is just about the only US racing driver called Bill for whom I had never heard the Wild prefix!
Not my area of expertise but: https://asipofsports.com/2019/05/26/sto ... -vukovich/
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#17

Post by erwin greven »

Ruslan wrote: 3 years ago
erwin greven wrote: 3 years ago I know Earnhardt ran the Daytona 24h at least once. But further i can't remember him doing anything else than NASCAR.
Yea, I think it was GTO. Didn't embarrass himself. Cale Yarlborough actually ran Le Mans and Indy, but no real results. Dave Pearson won a Trans-Am race back then Trans-Am was a big deal. But, there is not much racing outside of NASCAR.
I think it was in 2001. A few weeks before his fatal accident. Dale Jr., who also ran in the same team, said Sr. ran in an unfamiliar way: conservative to the material. He knew the race was 24 hours, not 500 miles.
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#18

Post by acerogers58 »

No one really ranks Kyle Busch that high, especially in NASCAR only lists, likely because he only has 2 championships. However he has won 211 (and counting) NASCAR top 3 series races in 1085 races. 57 Cup, 97 Busch/Xfinity, 59 Trucks.

However only 3 of his Cup wins have come on road courses, two of which came in 2008 alone, and he's only made 2 starts outside stock cars that are relevant enough to be on racing reference, finishing 9th and 10th. His behavior on track at times has been extremely bad, and he hasn't "grown up", unlike his brother.

Andretti and Foyt are the clear standouts due to their success across multiple different series and car types.
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#19

Post by erwin greven »

acerogers58 wrote: 3 years ago No one really ranks Kyle Busch that high, especially in NASCAR only lists, likely because he only has 2 championships. However he has won 211 (and counting) NASCAR top 3 series races in 1085 races. 57 Cup, 97 Busch/Xfinity, 59 Trucks.

However only 3 of his Cup wins have come on road courses, two of which came in 2008 alone, and he's only made 2 starts outside stock cars that are relevant enough to be on racing reference, finishing 9th and 10th. His behavior on track at times has been extremely bad, and he hasn't "grown up", unlike his brother.

Andretti and Foyt are the clear standouts due to their success across multiple different series and car types.
It is true that he has only 3 wins on road courses, but he is better on RC's than the results show. Everyone knows the great Kesselowski/Ambrose battle on Watkins Glen, but that was because leader Kyle Busch left a huge oil trace over the whole course resulting him to fall back.
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#20

Post by XcraigX »

1. Mario Andretti
2. Dan Gurney
3. AJ Foyt
4. Phil Hill
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#21

Post by jimclark »

SB83 wrote: 3 years agoIt's all a matter of opinion, of course, but since we're going with drivers, not part-time greasemonkeys as well,
Some of the greatest designers/engineers/ team principals......"grease monkeys"??? That's downright rude. :nah:
(I'm hoping you just don't know the meaning of the word... :fingers: )

They were not "part-time greasemonkeys".

They were great drivers.......also the aforementioned great minds.
(I guess Jack and Bruce were "part-time greasemonkeys" too, eh?)

I agree Mario was great...'vast experience in Indy cars.

Info:
Of his 407 races: He won 52 times, 12.8%. Second 56 times, 13.8%. He podiumed 141 times, 34.6%.

Dan, on the other hand, with only 27 Indy car races under his buttocks:
Won 7, 25.0%, with that little Indy car seat time. 2nd 4, 14.8%. Podiumed in 16, 57.1%.

'Hell of an Indycar driver, engineer, and team owner/mgr. Yeah, a "grease monkey" all right....... :whistling:

As always, to each his own tho'...... :wink:
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#22

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XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago 1. Mario Andretti
2. Dan Gurney
3. AJ Foyt
4. Phil Hill
I am a big fan of Phil Hill, but I would not put him fourth. To many other good candidates out there.
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#23

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jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
SB83 wrote: 3 years agoIt's all a matter of opinion, of course, but since we're going with drivers, not part-time greasemonkeys as well,
Some of the greatest designers/engineers/ team principals......"grease monkeys"??? That's downright rude. :nah:
(I'm hoping you just don't know the meaning of the word... :fingers: )

They were not "part-time greasemonkeys".

They were great drivers.......also the aforementioned great minds.
(I guess Jack and Bruce were "part-time greasemonkeys" too, eh?)

I agree Mario was great...'vast experience in Indy cars.

Info:
Of his 407 races: He won 52 times, 12.8%. Second 56 times, 13.8%. He podiumed 141 times, 34.6%.

Dan, on the other hand, with only 27 Indy car races under his buttocks:
Won 7, 25.0%, with that little Indy car seat time. 2nd 4, 14.8%. Podiumed in 16, 57.1%.

'Hell of an Indycar driver, engineer, and team owner/mgr. Yeah, a "grease monkey" all right....... :whistling:

As always, to each his own tho'...... :wink:
Yea, I was using the term facetiously...thought that was pretty obvious, but anyway, I don't discount the outside-the-car achievements of men like Black Jack and Dan the Man one bit. However, when asked to rate the best "drivers", I keep it about driving only.

And percentages don't really prove anything because it leads to meaningless hypotheticals. Just because Dan had a higher winning % in a mere 27 IndyCar races doesn't mean he'd maintain that same % if he'd raced 407 races like Mario.
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#24

Post by erwin greven »

SB83 wrote: 3 years ago And percentages don't really prove anything because it leads to meaningless hypotheticals. Just because Dan had a higher winning % in a mere 27 IndyCar races doesn't mean he'd maintain that same % if he'd raced 407 races like Mario.
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#25

Post by jimclark »

SB83 wrote: 3 years agoYea, I was using the term facetiously...thought that was pretty obvious, but anyway, I don't discount the outside-the-car achievements of men like Black Jack and Dan the Man one bit. However, when asked to rate the best "drivers", I keep it about driving only.

And percentages don't really prove anything because it leads to meaningless hypotheticals. Just because Dan had a higher winning % in a mere 27 IndyCar races doesn't mean he'd maintain that same % if he'd raced 407 races like Mario.
Re: the "greasemonkey" reference, I was also wishing you were kidding, but without any punctuation/smilies, I hadda' comment just in case. ;)

Percentages? I understand your point but it's all we've got when processing large differences in compared numbers of races/results.

More to my point anyway was that Dan, having only driven Indy cars so rarely, was still skillful enough to produce the numbers he did with so little Indy car seat time.

As in F1 vs. Mario (who I, of course, respect tremendously, btw).
Dan's 4 (4.65 %) wins of 86 races look terrible compared to Mario's 12 (9.38 %) of 128.....until one considers that the vast majority of Mario's wins (10, 7.81%) were whilst driving the far superior to the opposition's cars.....another "greasemonkey" ( :tongue: ).....Chapman's, Lotus78s, and 79s. Dan never had anywhere near those sort of dominant "weapons" for his victories. :cool:

Ya' got me going. I dug deeper and found that in the only 20 Indy car races Dan was in with Mario, he came out ahead 12 times. 11 of these, in that "full time greasemonkey's" ( :tongue: ) own car (Eagle).......also with his own underpowered Ford stock block (pushrods, Weslake heads, naturally aspirated), not turbo OHCers like most others.

Okay, I'm done, I'm done. No more selling my choice of best American driver (A reminder, Dan was born here too) :)
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#26

Post by jimclark »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago 1. Mario Andretti
2. Dan Gurney
3. AJ Foyt
4. Phil Hill
@XcraigX 'Just came across this tidbit....

"Andretti and Dan Gurney are the only two drivers who won the most important automotive competitions – Formula 1, Indy cars, World Sportscar Championship, and NASCAR GN" :wink:

But I've got to add that Dan had a Trans Am win (Bud Moore Cougar, '66), and 3 Can Am wins (his own T70, '66, our neck of the woods, Bridgehampton; and 2 in McL 8D's, 'first two races of the season, '70, subbing for the deceased Bruce before Gethin joined Hulme full time). Mario can't say that.Talk about diversity..... :wink:

P.S. - BTW, Dan was born in Port Jeff(erson), as was I. :)
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#27

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jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago 1. Mario Andretti
2. Dan Gurney
3. AJ Foyt
4. Phil Hill
@XcraigX 'Just came across this tidbit....

"Andretti and Dan Gurney are the only two drivers who won the most important automotive competitions – Formula 1, Indy cars, World Sportscar Championship, and NASCAR GN" :wink:

But I've got to add that Dan had a Trans Am win (Bud Moore Cougar, '66), and 3 Can Am wins (his own T70, '66, our neck of the woods, Bridgehampton; and 2 in McL 8D's, 'first two races of the season, '70, subbing for the deceased Bruce before Gethin joined Hulme full time). Mario can't say that.Talk about diversity..... :wink:

P.S. - BTW, Dan was born in Port Jeff(erson), as was I. :)
To be fair, Mario also won in sprint cars - so could also race on dirt with the best of them in that discipline.
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#28

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It's kind of interesting to look back at this thread. It seems that very few American drivers have ever been multidisciplined and even fewer have tried to break into the global market.

Mario Andretti did just about everything and won in everything which is why he must be number one. Dan Gurney was similar but his driving career was extremely short.

What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
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#29

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

PTRACER wrote: 3 years ago
What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
Not to shabby with plenty of 1st places in everything up to Can-Am.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver ... l-USA.html

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#30

Post by jimclark »

Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 3 years ago
What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
Not to shabby with plenty of 1st places in everything up to Can-Am.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver ... l-USA.html
Again, don't get me wrong, I had/have great respect for Phil, but of the major series he was in, he only won one Can Am race, 3 FIA WSCC races, and the three F1 races. Besides Dan, Mario, Mark, and A.J., I can't think of any U.S. driver I'd call a "great". A bunch of very good ones, for sure, but no other greats to me. ;)
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#31

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 3 years ago
PTRACER wrote: 3 years ago
What about Phil Hill? I know of him only as a Grand Prix driver and occasional (?) sports car driver, but did he do anything notable in the US?
Not to shabby with plenty of 1st places in everything up to Can-Am.

https://www.racingsportscars.com/driver ... l-USA.html
Again, don't get me wrong, I had/have great respect for Phil, but of the major series he was in, he only won one Can Am race, 3 FIA WSCC races, and the three F1 races. Besides Dan, Mario, Mark, and A.J., I can't think of any U.S. driver I'd call a "great". A bunch of very good ones, for sure, but no other greats to me. ;)
Yeah Im not suggesting he was up their with the best, just more pointing out that he did plenty of stuff in the US and performed pretty well. But no he aint no Dan or Mario who are to me the best two of those mentioned.

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