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#91

Post by jimclark »

Bottom post of the previous page:

John, I mean this sincerely as my father was as racist as one gets and fed a bunch of those (and other) negative ideas..... Every individual makes of external influences what they will.
If it isn't Ian's "swastika" or some black's "noose" or "rebel flag"or my being called a "honky" by a few black's and a "n***** lover" by a few whites, there comes a time when one decides for themselves whether or not they're going to remain victims of those external "nothings".
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#92

Post by XcraigX »

You are free to fly whatever flag you want on your own property. It's the public display of the flag on public property (like the statehouse) or on privately owned property (like the racetrack) that people are putting a stop to. This is not "free expression" that is under threat. This is about the dismantling of white power, plain and simple. When the confederate flag (for example, because we could also be talking about any flag including the Nazi flag) is flown over the statehouse or at the racetrack, it implies that the owner of such property endorses what that flag stands for. Apparently NASCAR has had enough of being associated with the morals and ethics of the confederacy and has now banned that flag at it's tracks. Likewise the flag has been banned from flying over certain state capitals (mind you, this was just in the last 2 years) because they don't want the state government to be associated with it either. There is no-one saying you can't fly the flag on your own property. But then again if you are expressing that you are in support of the morals and ethics of the flag, you are also going to be judged as such.
In summation, there are spots where you can still fly the flag all day. You will probably be labeled as a racist for flying it. But no-one is stopping that from happening.
In fact I find it quite handy for figuring out where the racists are located. Just look for the flags.
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#93

Post by XcraigX »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago
DoubleFart wrote: 3 years ago @jimclark - we do you mean you don't have guilt? The vocal minority said you must have white guilt, we apparently all have white guilt.
You're right. I'm so sorry. I seem to have forgotten that racism is in my genetic make-up.

As I observe all the rioting, looting, destroying/burning buildings, throwing things at police, and knocking down monuments, I assume this is a "genetic" trait also......? :dunno:

Observation.....? Ha! Silly me! That's none of the above. That's "protesting". What am I thinking. I'm just being racist again......damn those genetics. :oops:

Oh lord, forgive me please. :roll:

:)
You guys are on a roll...

No one is suggesting you are supposed to have "white guilt" for crap that happened years ago. What would be nice is that when you see some racist crap going on or racism being directed toward someone, call it out as wrong. But if you condone it, thats your right to do also, just don't pretend your not. Stand up and be counted.

We are seeing people go too far with some of the destruction going on, but these issues have been ignored for so long there is alot of pent up anger. You do realize that there have been many, many accounts of the protesters repairing and repainting the things that the rioters have done. There is always going to be people taking things to far and there should be consequences for those individuals instead of the condemning of the entire movement. A really good parallel here is that no one is condemning all white people for the actions of a few racists. But it seems like you are pretending they are. People of color would rather have your help as an ally because that's the only way we are going to reduce racism or anti-semitism or xenophobia in this world. It's not black vs white. It's everyday people vs racists, anti-semites, and other shitty people.
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#94

Post by Cheeveer »

In this conversation it should be mentioned that NASCAR has actively banned the confederate flag on the cars since at least the early 1990's. In 1993 NASCAR barred a car sponsored by the Sons of Confederate Veterans bearing the organization's battle flag logo, for example. https://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=3655
MonteCristo wrote: 3 years ago
John wrote: 3 years ago What a bell-end. Imagine being offended that you can’t fly a flag of a country that doesn’t exist, to protest against the country that defeated it.
While defending the anthem of said ruling country... :huh:
This irony blows my mind. What also should be mentioned is that the confederate flag lay pretty much dormant from the end of the civil war until after WW2 when the civil rights movement took pace. It's probably the most misunderstood symbol in modern western history. Just recently I saw this Instagram hippie dippie vintage second hand store page which plastered itself in Black Lives Matter messages and you-get-the-idea. I scrolled back to January this year and saw that they were selling Lynyrd Skynyrd merch with confederate flags on them. So "groovy".

I rejoice in NASCAR's decision to get rid of it on it's grounds, but if it has a lasting impact on NASCAR's image and reputation remains to be seen. Not NASCAR is main motor racing interest, far from it, but since it's such a big deal in America it influences so many other series and what the public eye thinks of motor racing overall.
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#95

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Cheeveer wrote: 3 years ago In this conversation it should be mentioned that NASCAR has actively banned the confederate flag on the cars since at least the early 1990's. In 1993 NASCAR barred a car sponsored by the Sons of Confederate Veterans bearing the organization's battle flag logo, for example. https://www.racing-reference.info/showblog?id=3655
Few interesting things from that article:

'Frank "Rebel" Mundy raced in the early 50s with the flag painted as a backdrop on his car doors.

His real name was Francisco Eduardo Menendez but he realised early on that a latino name wouldn't fly in NASCAR so he changed it to Frank Mundy (not sure if legally or just for race entry blanks). The fact that he went the extra step by painting the flag on his car doors too attests to how desperately he wanted to fit in and be accepted.

Then there's the part about Bob Van Witzenburg, the guy you saw perched up on the hood or roof of every Darlington race winner in the 1960s proudly hoisting the flag. As it says in the article, he was an underground resistance fighter against the Nazis. How ironic then that after coming to the USA, he literally became a mascot for the very symbol of Jim Crow south.

Finally, on a different note, ARCA disallowing the Sons of Confederate Veterans car at Rockingham in 2009, a track outside NASCAR's jurisdiction, unlike the previous race at the NASCAR-owned Daytona, shows how although ARCA was 11 years away from being purchased by NASCAR, but was still all but owned by NASCAR even then.
Cheeveer wrote: 3 years ago I rejoice in NASCAR's decision to get rid of it on it's grounds, but if it has a lasting impact on NASCAR's image and reputation remains to be seen. Not NASCAR is main motor racing interest, far from it, but since it's such a big deal in America it influences so many other series and what the public eye thinks of motor racing overall.
It might have an effect. NASCAR's true fan base will always be in the south. The failed two-decade experiment of capturing markets north of the Mason-Dixon line have largely failed. Taking dates from heritage tracks like North Wilkesboro and Darlington and giving them to Fontana and New Hampshire have not really materialised in turning the north towards NASCAR. Even the much-sought-after New York race attempt failed a few years ago.
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#96

Post by jimclark »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years agoNo one is suggesting you are supposed to have "white guilt" for crap that happened years ago.
Oh.

I don't know where you're from nor what sources of news you use so I decided to Google for you and the first that pops up is:

"In the United States

American civil rights activist Bayard Rustin wrote that reparations for slavery would be an exploitation of white guilt and damage the "integrity of blacks".[13] In 2006, then-Senator Barack Obama wrote in his book The Audacity of Hope that "rightly or wrongly, white guilt has largely exhausted itself in America".[14] His view on the subject was based on an interaction in the US Senate, where he witnessed a white legislator complain about being made to "feel more white" when a black colleague discussed systemic racism with them.[15]

Shelby Steele, a conservative black political writer, discussed the concept in his 2006 book White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era. Steele criticizes "white guilt" saying that it is nothing more than an alternative interpretation of the concept of "black power":

Whites (and American institutions) must acknowledge historical racism to show themselves redeemed by it, but once they acknowledge it, they lose moral authority over everything having to do with race, equality, social justice, poverty and so on. [...] The authority they lose transfers to the 'victims' of historical racism and becomes their great power in society. This is why white guilt is quite literally the same thing as Black power.[16]

George F. Will, a conservative American political columnist, wrote: "[White guilt is] a form of self-congratulation, where whites initiate 'compassionate policies' toward people of color, to showcase their innocence to racism."[17]

In 2015, when it came to light American civil rights activist Rachel Dolezal had been posing as African American, Washington Post journalist Krissah Thompson described her as "an archetype of white guilt played to its end". Thompson discussed the issue with psychologist Derald Wing Sue, an expert on racial identity, who suggested that Dolezal had become so fascinated by racism and racial justice issues she "over-identified" with black people.[18] In 2016, the school district of Henrico County, Virginia ceased future use of an educational video, Structural Discrimination: The Unequal Opportunity Race, which visualized white privilege and structural racism. Parents complained, calling it a white guilt video, which led to a ban by the county's superintendent.[19][20]

In October 2018, The Economist proposed that an increase in Americans claiming Native American ancestry, often incorrectly, may be explained by attempts to "absolve them of collective European guilt for the genocide of indigenous people".[21]. In 2019, it was reported how liberal white Americans were being influenced by white guilt, changing patterns of political and social behaviour to be more racially inclusive since the election of Donald Trump. This included the methods by which Democratic nominees were being considered for the 2020 presidential election.[22][23]

In October 2019, students at middle school in Massachusetts raised money for the Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe, after learning that the tribe had dealt with the first colonists from The Mayflower. The school director said it had "left all our students with this sense of European guilt", and one student remarked "If we don’t try to repair what our ancestors did, the tribes will die off". "

There's more out there but I don't feel it incumbent of me to do your research for you. Awareness of one's surroundings is pretty important.
XcraigX wrote: 3 years agoWhat would be nice is that when you see some racist crap going on or racism being directed toward someone, A) call it out as wrong. But if you condone it, thats your right to do also, B) just don't pretend your not.
Quite presumptuous of you. I'm curious about your basis for those remarks.

Regarding both, A) I DO (depending what racist action it is. Expressing one's prejudices peacefully, here in the USA, is a Constitutional right and I will defend that right for someone to do so even when I disagree with them); and, B) I DON"T (I don't have to as I'm not).
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#97

Post by jimclark »

Hmmmppphhh. I missed this post. Surprise, surprise; an example of your own white guilt, and you don't even realize it......
XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago You are free to fly whatever flag you want on your own property. It's the public display of the flag on public property (like the statehouse) or on privately owned property (like the racetrack) that people are putting a stop to. This is not "free expression" that is under threat. This is about the dismantling of white power, plain and simple. When the confederate flag (for example, because we could also be talking about any flag including the Nazi flag) is flown over the statehouse or at the racetrack, it implies that the owner of such property endorses what that flag stands for. Apparently NASCAR has had enough of being associated with the morals and ethics of the confederacy and has now banned that flag at it's tracks. Likewise the flag has been banned from flying over certain state capitals (mind you, this was just in the last 2 years) because they don't want the state government to be associated with it either. There is no-one saying you can't fly the flag on your own property. But then again if you are expressing that you are in support of the morals and ethics of the flag, you are also going to be judged as such.
In summation, there are spots where you can still fly the flag all day. You will probably be labeled as a racist for flying it. But no-one is stopping that from happening.
In fact I find it quite handy for figuring out where the racists are located. Just look for the flags.
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#98

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jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Hmmmppphhh. I missed this post. Surprise, surprise; an example of your own white guilt, and you don't even realize it......
This won't age well.
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#99

Post by DoubleFart »

John wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Hmmmppphhh. I missed this post. Surprise, surprise; an example of your own white guilt, and you don't even realize it......
This won't age well.
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#100

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@jimclark I think you are missing the point of the examples you cited. They used White Guilt as an example of going too far on the subject. We want to be treated the same (and live up to the idea of what America is supposed to be), not have power over others.

I'm using the general "you". Not saying that you don't ('cause I don't know you). It's what I would expect from anyone. I'm not talking about speech (because that does not really harm anyone - except for the butthurt). I'm talking about something that could have an actual effect on someone. Denying entry. Calling the cops for no damn reason. Police brutality. I'm sure you can think of others.

And I'm sure I have no white guilt. Perhaps you could explain how that would be possible from my statement earlier? Break it down for me maybe? I would love to hear your thoughts.
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#101

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XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago @jimclark I think you are missing the point of the examples you cited. They used White Guilt as an example of going too far on the subject. A) We want to be treated the same (and live up to the idea of what America is supposed to be), not A)have power over others.

I'm using the general "you". Not saying that you don't ('cause I don't know you). B) It's what I would expect from anyone. C) I'm not talking about speech (because that does not really harm anyone - except for the butthurt). D) I'm talking about something that could have an actual effect on someone. E) Denying entry. Calling the cops for no damn reason. Police brutality. I'm sure you can think of others.

F) And I'm sure I have no white guilt. Perhaps you could explain how that would be possible from my statement earlier? Break it down for me maybe? I would love to hear your thoughts.
I know you don't know me yet you pass some erroneous judgements on me.
A) Power over others?
I've explained before but I'll explain again... I come from humble beginnings; My parents, grandmother, and sister lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment on the second floor of a small house in a "hood"....50/50 poor black and white. We all got along great. There was no racism 'twixt us (my father kept his under control, he never acted on his prejudice). It was right near the projects, across the Roosevelt Avenue bridge from what would become the Mets Shea Stadium on one side of the ave. and the World's Fair/Flushing Meadows Park on the other. (Google Flushing, NY) A bunch of families were evicted so the city could level the block for a (approx.) 50 car parking lot for the NY World's Fair. We climbed out of that "lifestyle" with ambition and hard work. We never felt anyone "owed" us anything even though we were frowned upon. (With no money to speak of, further down the road, I got my two "rent-a-seat" rides in the 24 of Daytona by doing the same in the small, underfunded, family team's shop at night).

B) I don't "expect" anything from anyone. I do what I think is right for the circumstances....actions....not expressions of choice.

C) Speech (expression) hurts noone....(except those that want to be "victims")...what do you know....we agree on something.

D) Again. So am I.

E) I keep hearing about that, but, surprisingly, the only cases I know of personally, are cases involving whites (myself included, 'another story)...... Golly, how can that be? Simple. It's not racism. It's just arsehole cops. Arseholes are everywhere.

From "Black Lives Matter", "What We Believe":
"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."
Yeah...'works great.....how about Chicago? If it "cares" so much, why isn't Black Lives Matter "protesting" (kaff-kaff) there? Blacks murdering each other, like, daily?
Only half way through the year:

"By Chicago Tribune
Jun 22, 2020 at 12:00 AM
In Chicago, 254 people have been killed this year. That is 16 more than 2019.
Data through Monday, June 15"

F) Then why do you feel that you, and your "expectation of others"(B), owe anyone anything?

Enuff on this. I have no reason to feel guilty for being racist, or, what was/is done by others in the past/present, and never will (both), and I assume, nor should you. That's that. :)
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#102

Post by MonteCristo »

John wrote: 3 years ago
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Hmmmppphhh. I missed this post. Surprise, surprise; an example of your own white guilt, and you don't even realize it......
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#103

Post by erwin greven »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago We want to be treated the same (and live up to the idea of what America is supposed to be), not have power over others.
I was once taught the US stood for "Liberty and Justice for All".

So not just for all Americans, or all white Americans, or all rich Americans, or all Republican/Democrat Americans, or all conservative/liberal Americans.

For ALL.

Sadly some politicians and groups think differently.
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#104

Post by XcraigX »

jimclark wrote: 3 years ago I've explained before but I'll explain again... I come from humble beginnings; My parents, grandmother, and sister lived in a tiny one bedroom apartment on the second floor of a small house in a "hood"....50/50 poor black and white. We all got along great. There was no racism 'twixt us (my father kept his under control, he never acted on his prejudice). It was right near the projects, across the Roosevelt Avenue bridge from what would become the Mets Shea Stadium on one side of the ave. and the World's Fair/Flushing Meadows Park on the other. (Google Flushing, NY) A bunch of families were evicted so the city could level the block for a (approx.) 50 car parking lot for the NY World's Fair. We climbed out of that "lifestyle" with ambition and hard work. We never felt anyone "owed" us anything even though we were frowned upon. (With no money to speak of, further down the road, I got my two "rent-a-seat" rides in the 24 of Daytona by doing the same in the small, underfunded, family team's shop at night).
Small world. I was born in the Jamaica Co-ops, but we moved to upstate NY when I was a kid. (See, my parents also worked hard to change their lives. No one "owed" them anything either.) My grandmother, my uncle and his family all lived in a house just off of 188th (Farmers blvd.) until the late 90s, so I am familiar with the area. Back during the time you are referring to (pre-Shea), it was a nice suburban area. It didn't become "the hood" until the late 80s (and it's coming back to being a nice area again). But glad to hear you had some black friends at one point in your life. Do you stay in touch with any of them?
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago E) I keep hearing about that, but, surprisingly, the only cases I know of personally, are cases involving whites (myself included, 'another story)...... Golly, how can that be? Simple. It's not racism. It's just arsehole cops. Arseholes are everywhere.
If you can't see any examples, then you are purposely closing your eyes. I've had people I know abused by the police and I see the police using excessive force for petty crimes with people of color all the time in the media. In fact it seems to be encouraged by our President and the conservative news chanels. I myself have been lucky for the most part, but I have been pulled over and questioned (why are you in this area?) and even frisked at one point for no aparent reason. In case you have not figured it out by now, I'm a black man. I have no criminal record, but I'm not viewed that way by parts of this country. I was also a poor struggling student at one point with a crappy car that used to like hanging out downtown. I've had both good run-ins with the police and bad ones. So when I hear the stories and I see the videos I believe it to be a problem that needs to be fixed.
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Yeah...'works great.....how about Chicago? If it "cares" so much, why isn't Black Lives Matter "protesting" (kaff-kaff) there? Blacks murdering each other, like, daily?
Only half way through the year:
"By Chicago Tribune
Jun 22, 2020 at 12:00 AM
In Chicago, 254 people have been killed this year. That is 16 more than 2019.
Data through Monday, June 15"
There is no such thing as "black on black" crime. It's just crime!! Crime itself is hard to solve and I would rather the police focus their real energy on it. Black on black crime is the number one tool used by racism deniers to distract the conversation (Whataboutism). Black people are not intentionally targeting random black people to kill because they are agents of some sort of black KKK. Instead in Chicago we have gang members fighting or people robbing people over drugs or money. This is crime. There is more white on white crime in America than there is of black on black crime, but it's funny how we never hear about that. Why aren't the police patrolling the poor white neighborhoods and stopping and frisking people or pulling them over in their cars just because they are in the "wrong neighborhood" or "looking suspicious"? Because white people are given the presumption of innocence that everyone one is supposed to have (accoring to our laws).
The police are supposed to protect and serve. The reason you see people upset about the police is because they are neither protecting nor serving the black and brown communities. We pay them to guard us from crime, not target us as criminals everyday. They are oppressing and ensuring the historical racial stereotypes (e.g all blacks are criminals) are enforced. This is something that can be solved. This is why the movement was started. They can't stop criminals from being criminals, but they can stop the police from being criminals. The conservatives do not want to solve it because it would upset the power structure that gives them the advantage.

Plus there are other organizations focused on reducing crime in Chicago. Fox news just doesn't report it.
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jimclark wrote: 3 years ago F) Then why do you feel that you, and your "expectation of others"(B), owe anyone anything?
Because racism is evil and should be stopped. This is a moral issue. But racism is so engrained in the American DNA that we would like to think it's a political issue. If you saw a man beating a woman would you just let it happen or would you say something or try to get the police or someone else involved? Or is that Man Guilt? If you saw a bunch of skinheads berating or terrorizing someone jewish, would you intervene? Or is that Christian Guilt? We need to think of racism the same way. People don't owe me anything. We all have a role to play in society. We owe it to our society to make it a place we want to live in. What roll will you play? This isn't about doing something out of guilt, this is about doing something because it is right. Because that's the world you want to live in.
jimclark wrote: 3 years ago Enuff on this. I have no reason to feel guilty for being racist, or, what was/is done by others in the past/present, and never will (both), and I assume, nor should you. That's that. :)
Like this conversation started. It's not about white guilt. No one is expecting you to have any. But if you are trying to pretend racism does not exist, time to wake up and face the reality that it does.
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#105

Post by erwin greven »

Thanks for this post! @XcraigX
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#106

Post by Ian-S »

XcraigX wrote: 3 years ago @jimclark I think you are missing the point of the examples you cited. They used White Guilt as an example of going too far on the subject. We want to be treated the same (and live up to the idea of what America is supposed to be), not have power over others.
There seems to be a big misconception from the likes of BLM that only black people live in poverty and don't get equal opportunities, that they are somehow second class citizens. You, as in black people, not you directly, do get treated the same, you can use the same toilet as a white person, sit in the same area of the bus etc. I don't know of any segregation that goes on (please correct me if I am wrong).

Now when it comes to getting equal opportunities in employment that is another matter and depends on the individual views of the person doing the hiring, as we are always reminded whenever a Muslim blows up kids at a concert, or another one goes on a knife rampage, or a group of black kids go on a riot and beat up the local white kids (like what happened in London last week) the first answer to all this is "this is actions of a small minority and is not representative of the greater community".

Funny how that doesn't apply the other way.
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